time to update the rule book

[CHAD HUNTER]

Now that most enduros are the restart format there are no special skills that would hinder a harescramble guy. Just ask Charlie Mullins, he cleaned up in the NEPG this year! Gas and go and don't forget to pack a sandwich. The classes for Croom look like they have sand!

[Joey Young]

The classes for Croom look like they have sand!

Chad, I'm not sure I understand your reference to sand but if you meant what I think you meant there was more "sand" at LBJ than there will be at Croom by a pretty good margin.goracing

[Peter Magee]

Yes, i, too, would like to know what the sand reference is about. Sand baggers?

[CHAD HUNTER]

Point being there is no need to ride down a class in enduros. A restart enduro is no more difficult or challenging than a harescramble. The gncc guys proved it this year. The two offroad disciplines are now becoming very similar with the proliferation of the restart format. I would say a woods rider going MX is the only valid case to ride down.

[Peter Magee]

I agree!

[jeremy powell]

My only suggestion to this thread is as follows:

You had better get your SETRA rule book editors in the same mindset.



The guy that won my "Sr B" class last week at the Bootlegger in Wilkesboro, NC hung a 27. The overall highpoint (Hunter Williams AA) hung a 20. I hung a 46 and finished 7th out of 12 in Sr B. If we are going to co-sanction with them, we should try to coordinate our rule books concerning promotion.

I did do OK at fast places like LBJ (2nd), and I should place well at Croom and the Apollo event, but the others on the SETRA schedule are Nationals or back in the Mountains.

If we want to grow Enduro participation, we should recognize that folks that find them "Fun" will likely find their way into events outside of FTR. When we are forced to race the non-FTR races in completely unfamiliar territory (Rocks, Mountains, hard-pack, wooded climbs and descents) our class rankings in Hare Scrambles in the FTR won't prepare us at all for racing in those locations/conditions.

By the way, I would not have won the Vet C or Sr C class in Wilkesboro. This should show you how different the 2 rulebooks/talent levels are between SETRA and FTR. The Vet C winner hung a 35.


OBVIOUSLY, I am not interested in running in the C classes, but I think it illustrates the differences between our two organizations.

I won't argure against a thoughtful rule change. I plan on riding A next year in enduros with or without a rule change to FTR's rulebook.

For the people that follow my path in future years (FTR enduros for the first year, followed by SETRA/Nationals) - you might consider carefully coordinating with SETRA as part of your rule change.

[Frank Geremia]

Now that most enduros are the restart format there are no special skills that would hinder a harescramble guy. Just ask Charlie Mullins, he cleaned up in the NEPG this year! Gas and go and don't forget to pack a sandwich. The classes for Croom look like they have sand!

rof1rof1

i found at least onedeadh1

[Jeff Williams]

I do agree that a woods rider is a woods rider. IMO, with start/restart formats it virtually eliminates any argument that a HS and enduro have different skill sets.

I know there has been a lot of contention over the years about the SETRA rule allowing a drop down in class from one series to the other. I know most of the sides to the debate, but maybe not all of them. I expect it will get more discussion now that SETRA has adopted all start/restart formats.

I have also seen that most MX riders can adapt to woods racing pretty darn well. I don't really have a personal issue with a MX guy, first year in the woods, riding down a class to learn the ropes even though they usually finish in the same level as their MX class. What IS very difficult from what I have seen, is a woods guy transition to MX. For me it it is not the fear of flying, it's the fear of landing.

[Jerry Bean]

Now that most enduros are the restart format there are no special skills that would hinder a harescramble guy. Just ask Charlie Mullins, he cleaned up in the NEPG this year! Gas and go and don't forget to pack a sandwich. The classes for Croom look like they have sand!

I still think there is a difference between racing in open trails/cow fields and
racing 60+miles of tight technical terrain. Plus Charlie is PRO and gets paid to take chances and go past the limits. May not be a good comparison to us weekend warriors. I think all it proved is how talented he really is. Just my .02


you might consider carefully coordinating with SETRA as part of your rule change.

+1


I too raced in Wilkesboro, NC last weekend in vetc. I place 6th out of 10 and would have been last in vetb. Lochloosa I placed 3rd out of 3 and only made it to the gas stop. LBJ I placed 3rd out of 14 and would have been 13th out of 17 in vetb. I race vetb in FTR H/S (promoted before the half way mark last year). I raced vetc last year in enduros(only one other guy in my class). Rankings placed me back in vetc so I decided to start the season there and see what happens. Looks like more guys are stepping out to try some enduros with me hiya2

If you do propose a rule change in lines with our FTR H/S ranking system, I would do as Jeremy stated and try to get SETRA on board if we continue to co-sanction with them. Those guys are fast!

[David Jensen]

I have only run 1 race, a GNCC in south carolina and finished poorly by falling hard on their orange concrete they call clay. I am also headed to bama for the gobbler getter, and I do not expect to well on their ground but when those folks come here to race the sand whoops and pallmettos give them fits. It goes both ways but it seems like there are more races that favor those conditions the SETRA folks ride. I can understand the frustration but doing like Jeremy and racing in all the different conditions frequently will make one a more well rounded racer. Those guys aren't any faster than us they are just half mountain goat!!!!rof1 rof1

Good luck getting this figured out, popc

[jeremy powell]

I still think there is a difference between racing in open trails/cow fields and racing 60+miles of tight technical terrain!

I seem to recall people thinking our woods in Lake City were too tight?! Boy would they be surprised to see woods tighter than that going up and down the Appalachian Mountains of Wilkesboro. Google it. You will see it has a neighboring area (Boone, NC) that is home to Sugar and Beech Ski resorts.

Hard to imagine that our cow field racing, sometimes at speeds above 50 MPH, translating to that kind of trail.

See for yourself - load up your bike and gear and head to the Perry Mountain enduro. It's an FTR/SETRA/SERA event in November. It should be pretty clear that there are significant differences in our class "rankings" and "rules" versus our competition in other series.

http://www.floridatrailriders.org/flyer/11_season/GGflyer10.pdf

I think this would be a good litmus test for the points made by Jerry Bean and me.

Just my 2 cents

Of course - I am just glad we are talking about motorcycles and racing versus the other "STUFF" on the forum - so you can see how easily I am pleased.

[jeremy powell]

David Jensen,

Your post proves my point. We CAN win and/or place well in Florida. BUT THEY can avoid our events and have enough events to win a championship (never having to ride a single sand whoop). We cannot do that. WE HAVE to race outside of our comfort zone to make waves in SETRA. If we make our rules tougher than theirs, then we do 2 things - We give them even more advantage and we water down our series.

I am racing A next season regardless - but I would really hope the folks get a full understanding of what we are up against if we run the full SETRA series before we look at one enduro IN FLORIDA and decide a rule needs changing.

There are 2 things that need to be remembered:

1. The "Jeremy Rule" (from my results last year last year - Won Vet B championship and was placed in C via specialty rankings) - Rankings need review.

2. The "Dillon Rule" (won B championship, would have won A championship in his class) - SETRA/AMA racer that came to our STATE series in a similar class.

The math is simple to me: The bigger the series the greater the competition -

State series (FTR) < Regional Series (SETRA/SERA) < National Series (NEPG/AMA)

[jeremy powell]

Last reply (in a row at least)

How often do you RACE (pass, get passed, pass) in Hare Scrambles? All the time, right?

In enduros, you almost NEVER race anyone. You really are running your own pace, speed and time. You catch people they move over. Someone catches you, you move over. Nobody races each other in enduros.

Longest race in H/S in my H/S career about 45 miles.

Longest race in my enduro career 80+ miles

Those seem different to me regardless of whether or not you have a computer or route sheet or controlled starts or not.

[Joey Young]

If we make our rules tougher than theirs, then we do 2 things - We give them even more advantage and we water down our series.



This is one of my biggest contentions in HS. The 25 "point" advancement forces you into "B" and places you in even a more difficult situation when we venture outside of Florida racing enduros. 35 maybe.....25 is too low. I've said it before and I don't expect it to change but the members riding level is being toyed with by the organization at the riders expense.

[Lee Daley]

Geesh! I'm glad I ride for fun and not a little trophy.

Ride on rider.gif
Lee

[Joey Young]

Geesh! I'm glad I ride for fun and not a little trophy.

Ride on rider.gif
Lee

Lee, I've had fun and I'm gonna have fun at all the enduros no matter where I finish. It's just a little funner when you finish well against your classmates. Don't take this the wrong way because I like you but not everyone has had the fortune to ride as long as you have or do they have your talent. Brraappp!!!lgrand

[jeremy powell]

Yeah Lee - You are OLD, and you are FAST.

rof1

[CHAD HUNTER]

Just think of it as flat ground that has been tilted up!banlam

[Lee Daley]

Yeah Lee - You are OLD, and you are FAST.

rof1

I'm not that old, and definitely not that fast. My comment was not meant to disrespect anybody or your plight when competing elsewhere.

Since both FTR and SETRA have a ranking system (FTR for specialty only), what keeps you from riding your ranked class in each series? Sign up for the higher ranked class for the day, but inform the scorekeeper that you are riding your ranked class in that organization for points. For example, if you are an FTR Senior A rider and a SETRA +40B rider, sign up for the A class but inform the SETRA scorekeeper that you are competing for B year end points. Is there a rule that prevents this? The downside is that some of the guys in B class may get a trophy at the race but then when the points come out they could possibly be a place lower.

Or just man up and ride the higher class, after a few years of riding the series you will get better. I just wish we had the variety in the FTR series that SETRA has.

Lee

[jeremy powell]

I have had two high-speed get offs trying to compete in B. 4th gear both times. I am pretty sure I am a SETRA B enduro rider. I can't go any faster and my finishes are (DNF - Lochloosa, 2nd - LBJ, DNF - Hillbilly, 7th of 12 - Bootlegger).

Other than riding (for fun) at Highland Park, I have NEVER seen some of the terrain we rode in the Bootlegger. It was fun - but I wasn't fast. noo1

[Lee Daley]

I have had two high-speed get offs trying to compete in B. 4th gear both times. I am pretty sure I am a SETRA B enduro rider. I can't go any faster and my finishes are (DNF - Lochloosa, 2nd - LBJ, DNF - Hillbilly, 7th of 12 - Bootlegger).

Other than riding (for fun) at Highland Park, I have NEVER seen some of the terrain we rode in the Bootlegger. It was fun - but I wasn't fast. noo1

Jeremy, a 2nd place at LBJ is an outstanding ride! Don't sell yourself short, it was many years at LBJ before I got a jug. As far as those that have gone before you riding FTR enduros --> SETRA enduros --> national enduros, I think you are well ahead of the learning curve.

[robert camp]

I seem to recall this same argument every year just after the GNCC passes through Florida. There are good arguments as to why riders choose to drop down a class in Enduros, and I see they are within the rules to do so...BUT.... you earned that "A" because you are quick. Wear it with pride. Could we say that this is the same as a varsity player dropping down to play JV? Or a pro dropping down to college level? If all "A" riders drop and all "B" peeps drop as well... Where does the "C" dude go. He can't drop down! Maybe we can summarize it like this: The slower, inexperienced rider can never do good in an Enduro, i.e. the "C" rider. Are the setra guys dropping down when they ride their tracks (terrain)? NO! But we feel its ok to drop when we are racing "at home", against 90% FTR regulars, not mostly setra people.

Just my opinion. See ya'll at croom, sportin my "B" in the "B" classhebanghebanghebang

[Clayton Carter]

Does anybody know who would I contact if I am signed up for the wrong class? I got promoted from B Open to A in H/S, but I never raced enough enduros to get promoted there. I don't feel right about racing the B class. I'll go ahead a let the other A riders woop up on me instead, lol. greenmc

[Lee Daley]

Just tell them you want to switch when you go to signup, Mr. Cutler rof1

[Joey Young]

I'll go ahead a let the other A riders woop up on me instead, lol. greenmc

Clayton, that's what I've been getting done to me so far this year in the "B" class. Not to worry I've been racing with broken ribs and I don't expect to get whooped up on all year. Ya hear me RC?rof1

[jeremy powell]

I seem to recall this same argument every year just after the GNCC passes through Florida. There are good arguments as to why riders choose to drop down a class in Enduros, and I see they are within the rules to do so...BUT.... you earned that "A" because you are quick. Wear it with pride. Could we say that this is the same as a varsity player dropping down to play JV? Or a pro dropping down to college level? If all "A" riders drop and all "B" peeps drop as well... Where does the "C" dude go. He can't drop down! Maybe we can summarize it like this: The slower, inexperienced rider can never do good in an Enduro, i.e. the "C" rider. Are the setra guys dropping down when they ride their tracks (terrain)? NO! But we feel its ok to drop when we are racing "at home", against 90% FTR regulars, not mostly setra people.

Just my opinion. See ya'll at croom, sportin my "B" in the "B" classhebanghebanghebang



Since tone is often lost in forum posts, please read this in a tone of quiet reflection. That's how I wrote it.

FACT: I raced Hare Scrambles for the first time in 2008-2009 (Won VET C)
FACT: When I decided to enter Enduros, I called Don King and asked where I should ride based on my success in Hare Scrambles. He said B. I raced B.
FACT: I raced Enduros for the First Time 2009-2010 (in B)
FACT: I was promoted to "A" after the midway point of last season in Hare Scrambles after less than 20 TOTAL RACES in the FTR Hare Scramble series.
FACT: My specialty RANKING in ENDUROS after last Season where I RACED every ENDURO the FTR offers was VET C. (Look it up - it's on the Scores Page)
FACT: Last season's VET B class was watered down due to other riders' injuries and the economy keeping folks from doing many enduros.
FACT: EVEN THOUGH I was ranked as a "C" rider in the specialty rankings, I am not a "C" rider and suggested we adopt a rule to remedy our rankings anomolies.
FACT: I also cannot ride 2 levels down per the rulebook (nor would I since I NEVER RACED C in an ENDURO)
FACT: I posted my racing INTENTIONS for this YEAR on this VERY FORUM.
FACT: Mike Belle commented that it seemed like a good plan to grow my skills and find speed.
FACT: I AM NOT RACING FTR ENDUROS. I AM RACING SETRA ENDUROS and National Enduros.
FACT: I have never raced the SETRA series before (minus the co-santioned events last season)
FACT: I finished outside of the TROPHIES at every Enduro that was Co-Sanctioned minus PERRY MTN - where I finished 2nd. (People struggled - I had an epic ride)
FACT: SETRA DRAWS from Florida, Georgia, TN, SC, NC, and AL and co-sanctions with SERA - which draws from AL, AK, LA, and MS
FACT: NEPG Enduros draw riders from every state.
FACT: I haven't yet raced an "A" event in ANY racing organization or in any discipline.

I HAVE EARNED an "A" in H/S in Florida, and I will be at Palatka with my 517A firmly attached to all three sides of my bike. I have far from earned anything in SETRA or Enduros except for bruises and high-speed crashes.

It seems to me you guys would want me to represent the FTR well in SETRA and in the National Events. It is only my second season of Racing ENDUROS (and only my 3rd if you count my VET C H/S season) after all.

It makes me wonder how many "A" riders have less than 2 years of racing experience? Besides me, I would bet that number is nearly ZERO.
goracing

[Clayton Carter]

Just tell them you want to switch when you go to signup, Mr. Cutler rof1

Ya, maybe I'm incognito baghd or maybe I just have bad handwriting rof1rof1

[jeremy powell]

PG 17 Section B, "Classifications of Riders: (FOR DISPLACEMENT CLASSES ONLY)


“A” and “B” FTR Hare
Scrambles series and Motocross series riders will ride in the “B”
enduro division.


It's therefore your decision based upon your desire to ride the class you choose - "A" or "B"

[Sam Boydstun]

When in doubt, challenge yourself and ride the higher division!

[jeremy powell]

Yes Sam. The rule I quoted is for Displacement racers and specific to how they are allowed to race and how they get "Promoted" via their promotion system.

The specialty classes do not have a "Promotion" system. They have a Specialty ranking system, which I am sure you are aware.

For reference you can review the Specialty "Rankings" here:

http://www.floridatrailriders.org/Enduro/2011_pdf/Specialty-Ranking-for-2010-2011-season.pdf

[David Jensen]

Yeah Lee - You are OLD, and you are FAST.

rof1

Lee, we all know your fast but why does everyone think your so old?????deadh1
Could it be your head looks like it has worn out 3 bodies????? rof1

Just kidding brother, see you at Croom with that box of goodies.

Dave lgrand

[Chris Swanbom]

In the FTR rule book it says on page 18 4. Beginner promotion rules are, after 3 top 5 finishes or after
starting 8 events the rider is promoted up to the proper FTR class.
“A” and “B” FTR Hare Scrambles riders will ride in the “B” enduro
division. Classification of Hare Scrambles specialty class riders
will be determined by decision of Enduro Committee chairman,
referee and scorekeeper prior to establishing a ranking number.

So why am I seein B riders in C class Should be alot of protesting tomorrow

[Joey Young]

Chris, welcome to Enduro!!!rof1

[Frank Geremia]

It also states in the rule book "At the end of each season, a “C” rider will be
promoted to the “B” division if the average of their year-end award
scores equals 60 or more points Average will be calculated only
for those riders competing in three or more FTR championship
events. A rider in this category will advance to “B” class regardless
of their standing. Also any time throughout the year, if any “C”
rider accumulates 15 or more FTR advancement points, they
will be moved to “B” division immediately."

I see people with loads of advancement points, i've researched and found nearly adv 100 pts and people still ride c class.??? and higher average than 60pts...

[Jerry Bean]

Where can I find the enduro advancment points? I don't know how many I have. I see my avg. is 43.22

[Sam Boydstun]

Where can I find the enduro advancment points? I don't know how many I have. I see my avg. is 43.22

Jerry,
In Enduro Series:
Advancement points are given to displacement class riders only.

Specialty class ranking numbers (your average) are used in specialty classes only.
You are riding a specialty class in enduros, so you don't have any advancement points.

[jeremy powell]

It also states in the rule book "At the end of each season, a “C” rider will be
promoted to the “B” division if the average of their year-end award
scores equals 60 or more points Average will be calculated only
for those riders competing in three or more FTR championship
events. A rider in this category will advance to “B” class regardless
of their standing. Also any time throughout the year, if any “C”
rider accumulates 15 or more FTR advancement points, they
will be moved to “B” division immediately."

I see people with loads of advancement points, i've researched and found nearly adv 100 pts and people still ride c class.??? and higher average than 60pts...

Frank - this only applies to displacment classes (e.g. 200(B, C), 250 (B, C), Open (B, C) etc.)

Specialty classes (Vet, Sr, SSR, Master, etc) get ranked after a season is completed. The Enduro scorekeeper takes all scores of every rider (minus any work scores credits AND DNFs) and averages their scores for all completed events. THEN Each SPECIALTY score is STACKED against all others in their Age Class. For VETs last season, all Vets (A, B, C) are stacked and ranked highest to lowest by each rider's average. Then an assignment of RANKING is defined as follows: The top 25% are RANKED as "A," the middle 35% are ranked as "B" and the bottom 40% are ranked as "C." If you look at last season in the "Vet" category, there are many examples of folks being ranked differently than their H/S ranking. From my count, 5 out of 9 racers in the VET classes are RANKED in a different class than their H/S ranking. It is just how the ranking works in Enduros.

http://www.floridatrailriders.org/Enduro/2011_pdf/Specialty-Ranking-for-2010-2011-season.pdf

I am COMPLETELY on board with making adjustments to the rules associated with ranking (if there is really a push to make such adjustments). I would only caution that we try to get our sister sanctioning bodies to match our rules to ensure a level playing field is maintained for the co-sanctioned races.

SETRA, as an example is SUPER SUPPORTED and it's rider numbers are REALLY Strong when it comes to enduros (400-600 riders show up for a SETRA enduro). Their H/S series is much smaller. (Think of it as almost a mirror opposite of the FTR). They emphasize the enduro series (it gets first choice on the overall calendar each year for race weekends, and they get 3-5 NEPG/AMA nationals on their calendar). The FTR is hoping to GROW its enduro series to match that level of ridership. I am for any rule that allows us to grow the ENDUROS and to get more folks involved in ENDURO racing.

If a rule needs adjusting - why not look at creating rules that follow some of the SETRA standards:

Anomaly ranking if a rider ranked "40" in an A class where the rider ahead of him is ranked 30 then 29 then 27 etc but rider below him is in B class with ranking of 41, then 43, 44 etc. then rider will go to B class. The "40" rider can be grouped with riders closer to his ranking. This decision is made by the competition committee. (THIS rule would have pushed me to "B" because I was much closer in AVERAGE to Brad than Jerry)

AND/OR

If a rider without a ranking rides in a class but qualifies for trophy in the next higher class for 3 races or more he must move up and ride that class. Rider must be officially protested to move up. Junior classes to C class is exempt. (Doesn't apply to me - I have NEVER qualfied for a trophy in any Enduro in "A")

AND/OR

If a rider wins a class, he is promoted REGARDLESS of end of season rankings. (This would have made it MANDATORY for me to move to "A")



Those would make sense AND keep us in line with our sister, sanctioning organization's rules.

Just my 2 cents

goracing

[Frank Geremia]

Jerry,
In Enduro Series:
Advancement points are given to displacement class riders only.

Specialty class ranking numbers (your average) are used in specialty classes only.
You are riding a specialty class in enduros, so you don't have any advancement points.


I'M WAY TO CONFUSED... THE ENDURO RULES ARE MORE COMPLICATED THAN MY LAW BOOKS.

THANKS JEREMY..

[Brooks Tomblin]

I'm coming into this late so to get caught up, Lee is OLD. You should ask him what does to reduce arm pump.

Jeremy,

If you didn't compare your score to the Setra Master and GM class, thats where the real embarassment comes. Thats why we should have an FTR enduro series and quite all the traveling. You can't tell me we can't manage 10 instate enduros.

[Rocky Gavins]

When in doubt, challenge yourself and ride the higher division!

Sam, seems like I remember you were the guy who used to brag in his signature about how long he had managed to stay in the C class. rof1

[Jack Allen]

I said this at the beginning of the year. The specialty ranking system has a bunch of us who are very close in times racing in the same class. How else would you have it?

One idea I've been pondering for while would be to get some of the older fast guys in the same class. We could call it the Old Pro class or SrAA if nothing else but for the sake of letting guys like Tim King and Lee compete against each other rather than dominate their classes. How boring that must be for them ;). If we did this the stronger B riders would be pulled up into A because of how the numbers fall. Of course there would be alignment issues with SETRA but who knows, their ex AA guys might like the idea. It's a thought. I'm sure guys will be quick to point out all the 'why nots'.

One question: Would it be ok with you SrC HS guys if I dropped a class and came out and raced? After all, I've accomplished nothing in hare scramblers and that whole cow field thing is just crazy man!... Just kidding Jeremy, I can't speak for the other SrB guys but this one plans on keeping pace with you all year so you're right where you need to be.

[jeremy powell]

Nice Racing with ya Jack!!! SR B results (un-official)

It appears that JB is BACK!!!!!!

Jason Blankenship - 35
Jeremy Powell - 44
Jack Allen - 45

I don't remember the others, but Mike Belle took photos of all the scores. I'm sure he will have those up very soon. And Jeff Flick was hoping to get the scores and back-up books last night, so he could start the "Official" scoring. He's pretty focused on being quick with the scores, so maybe we will see them soon too.

[Rocky Gavins]

It looks like Jack is to be congratulated for being the first place B rider in SR B. rof1

[jeremy powell]

The way I see it, he is the 3rd "J" rider in Sr. B

bg23

[damon keister]

Race was awesome! My dad raced SSR.B, broke his foot 2nd loop at the 15 or so mile mark. went on to finish the race, then the ER today to find out its definetly broken! I believed i finished 2nd or 3rd in B200

On another note, What was up with all the A riders dropping down to be? im not going to name anybody, but i know 2 riders who are A, and dropped down to B, only to finish 3rd and 4th in the B Class. rof1

[Jerry Bean]

On another note, What was up with all the A riders dropping down to be? im not going to name anybody, but i know 2 riders who are A, and dropped down to B, only to finish 3rd and 4th in the B Class. rof1

I think that right there supports the Enduro ranking system. "A" in H/S doesn't necessarily mean "A" in Enduros. lgrand

[damon keister]

Jerry, An enduro and a harescramble arent to much different from one another. the only difference is the checkpoints, and about 30 or so extra miles. If you ride A in H/S, ride A in enduros. What about the guys who are true B riders? Not very supportive to them in my opinion. Same goes for the B riders dropping down to C.

[Jerry Bean]

Jerry, An enduro and a harescramble arent to much different from one another. the only difference is the checkpoints, and about 30 or so extra miles. If you ride A in H/S, ride A in enduros. What about the guys who are true B riders? Not very supportive to them in my opinion. Same goes for the B riders dropping down to C.



It's within the guidelines of the rules. If a "new style" enduro is "no" or "not much" different than the H/S series, maybe we should do away with one. I for one have a much easier time running full out for 2hrs vs. all day. I don't know. I do know that the enduro meeting went well, and I think there will be some progress.

Here is hope that this subject is a deadh1!

[Jack Allen]

Same stuff, different year.

The only thing that pulls up the class droppers back up into their potential class coming over from HS is the specialty class ranking at seasons end. At least it's a start. The issue is we have no way of ranking a rider unless he's done enough enduros to get an average. The problem is that we wait until the year has passed and he has his year end trophy to do it.

There is nothing stopping a top of his class HS guy from coming over and running an entire enduro season in a lower class and winning the season. Only after the whole season has gone by does the rider get re-classed. Every year someone wins a year-end trophy this way. It's a loop hole.

A mid-season specialty class re-ranking for the riders running 2 classes would close this loop hole. Make the riders ride their HS class for the first half and then if the re-ranking shows they're really that handicapped in the woods, 'then' allow them to drop a class. By doing this at mid-year the rider has lost nothing. He takes his points with him either way. Worst (or best depending on the person) case scenario he stays in his HS class.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular so don't take this as a personal attack. This is something that happens in all the B and C age classes year after year. It's broke and it does need to be fixed.

I hear the 'ride the same class' proposal was voted down this weekend. I personally don't know a single person other than those who are doing the dropping who thinks allowing riding 2 different classes is a good idea. Who voted against and why would you? PM me if you feel like enlightening me. Maybe I'm missing something. At this point we're just assuming all HS riders are a step below Enduro riders. How do I say this nicely, that's retarded!

[damon keister]

Same stuff, different year.

The only thing that pulls up the class droppers back up into their potential class coming over from HS is the specialty class ranking at seasons end. At least it's a start. The issue is we have no way of ranking a rider unless he's done enough enduros to get an average. The problem is that we wait until the year has passed and he has his year end trophy to do it.

There is nothing stopping a top of his class HS guy from coming over and running an entire enduro season in a lower class and winning the season. Only after the whole season has gone by does the rider get re-classed. Every year someone wins a year-end trophy this way. It's a loop hole.

A mid-season specialty class re-ranking for the riders running 2 classes would close this loop hole. Make the riders ride their HS class for the first half and then if the re-ranking shows they're really that handicapped in the woods, 'then' allow them to drop a class. By doing this at mid-year the rider has lost nothing. He takes his points with him either way. Worst (or best depending on the person) case scenario he stays in his HS class.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular so don't take this as a personal attack. This is something that happens in all the B and C age classes year after year. It's broke and it does need to be fixed.

I hear the 'ride the same class' proposal was voted down this weekend. I personally don't know a single person other than those who are doing the dropping who thinks allowing riding 2 different classes is a good idea. Who voted against and why would you? PM me if you feel like enlightening me. Maybe I'm missing something. At this point we're just assuming all HS riders are a step below Enduro riders. How do I say this nicely, that's retarded!

Jack, that sounds like a great idea. Glad someone could think of a possible solution, and not just rant and rave about it (that includes me, and everyone else) banlam

[Joey Young]

I have a hard time agreeing with the current class placement system even though I'm willing to abide by it. If you're an advanced rider you should race in an advanced class...an intermediate rider, an intermediate class and a novice rider should race in a novice class. If our organization is going to designate you in any one of these categories in any format then how does a intermediate suddenly become a novice and so forth. It's a complicated world we live in!!!lgrand After all, the enduro riders that get classified race on 2 wheels just as they would in HS. It's not like we're comparing jet pilots to rodeo riders.

[Jerry Bean]

A mid-season specialty class re-ranking for the riders running 2 classes would close this loop hole.



There was talk of this at the enduro meeting. It has legs so lets hope for the best. There was only +/- 12 at the meeting, and as much attention this has been getting I would of thought the parking lot would have been full.

Hoping for the best! popc

[jeremy powell]

This is a sampling of the riders in the Indiana NEPG/Rekluse +40A class:

Randy Hawkins, Shane Watts, Jeff Fredette, Dick Burleson, and Ty Davis (doesn't run hand-guards)

I think all of you are right on target with respect to FTR. I only have an issue with respect to our rules in the FTR hurting our chances in the larger series (specifically SETRA and NEPG.) Especially for riders that are moving up in the organization (e.g. from C to B to A).

Although, I am pretty sure I can beat most those guys listed in +40A rof1

Interesting reading HERE:

http://www.grindtv.com/moto/gallery/42456/what+really+happened+indiana+national+enduro/#328742

[Joey Young]

This is a sampling of the riders in the Indiana NEPG/Rekluse +40A class:

Randy Hawkins, Shane Watts, Jeff Fredette, Dick Burleson, and Ty Davis (doesn't run hand-guards)

Though, I am pretty sure I can beat most those guys listed in +40A rof1



Those guys are a bunch of has beens. You're on the improve..you can beat "em".rof1

[Rocky Gavins]

That's true. I watched Shane Watts ride at his Dirtwise class back in January. You have him covered Jeremy. No problem. rof1

[Larry Kuhn]

I'm with Rock, anyone fast enough to be "administrator" is fast enough to beat Dick Burleson, who is approaching 85 years old.